[Your View] Build Rules

[teeylin 1161]

 

Hey gamers. 

 

The Moderation team has been working towards a new set of build rules. With doors and redstone doors specifically being a big point of turmoil within the community, I want to ask what you as a community think is the best path forward. 

 

Currently there are no set in stone guidelines for doors, other than that there must be a door. Heists have a clause where moderation may open locked doors past two (2) if there is an excess of doors blocking a path; I want to bring this clause into the main build rules, making it server-wide regardless of heists. Should this number change, and if so, to what? The current consensus with the team is 3. 

 

The team is also debating whether or not to change the mechanics of /lockpick and /breakdown regarding doors. As it stands, the plugin automatically runs through the roll for you when you type the command. Here are the current roll checks behind the scenes: 

 

- Wood door — roll 17+ (10+ with a lockpick)
- Iron door — roll 19+ (15+ with a lockpick)

 

The general pros and cons to making them equal are listed below.

• PROS 

  • Allows more creative freedom with builds

  • You won’t grief your nation if you use a door that looks nice vs an iron one

  • /breakdown unaffected

• CONS 

  • Slight loss of security

  • /lockpick affected

 

Additionally, redstone doors have been a massive boon to people seeking to keep others out, whilst being a massive pain to everyone else. I want to seek a happy medium between the two, and have developed a few possible solutions:

 

• a) Eliminate key locks and hopper locks

• b) Eliminate only hopper locks

• c) Allow redstone doors to be lock-picked during petty theft and heists

• d) Allow redstone doors to be lock-picked during only heists

 

If you have more you would like to say on the matter or other ideas please feel free to leave it in a comment or speak about it within the moderation discord in the #build-rules-discussion channel.

https://discord.gg/RYdsFzc6hA

See ya soon, teeylin.

 

[Elennanore 2901]

One type of door shouldn't have a mechanical advantage over the other, purely for the sake of allowing folks to use whatever variety of door for the aesthetic they're choosing than what is 'ideal.' You see a lot of doors that are made of wood, and then another iron door behind it. For the purposes of lockpicks and /break, choose the middle most variable between the chance of a wood door or iron door breaking; (theoretical example) /roll 20 to break down a wood door, you must make a saving throw of 15, /roll 20 to break down an iron door, you must make a saving throw of 18, choose any number the mods think is 'fair' between 15 and 18.

edit: ngl I didn't read the forum post and didn't see the actual numbers for the rolls were written out : )

[Spoopy_Duck 1648]

I vote all doors equal because iron doors are ugly.

[TreeSmoothie 5163]

Even as a spook rper, I find it rly frustrating that groups can effectively hide behind redstone doors (and/or 10 billion iron doors) & never face consequence, or do the same /w lore builds (unsure if this is a thing this map, I've been ZZZ'ing). If a downside to having something like a void/necro tear, obelisk, etc. is that it can be destroyed - it should realistically be able to be accessed. I care less for doors if it's just a personal residence, tho

[Lirinya 2921]

Oh god ok.

 

I hate iron doors with a passion, I hate that as a player protecting something you feel the need to have two, three, four iron doors because someone can just spam the breakdown command without the need for RP. Yes there's consequences if they're caught, but it shouldn't be an 'if they're caught' situation.

 

Rather than make them equal, I'd perhaps like to see a change of rules on them. Leave them as they are, but limit their use. For vaults/storage places and citizen/gate doors but only limited to two.

Expanding on that, I'm thinking in terms of a safe. I know it's not realistic but, yno.

Maybe instill a cooldown on /breakdown? Once every [x], for example.

 

As for redstone doors.  They're cool, but I have no idea how they work.

I've always wondered if they should have their triggering block be something easily identifiable so that, yeah ok you can see there's one there. You might not know the key, but if you see that block- you know something is hidden. That way you could still lockpick it. Not sure if that's viable, in any form.

[mika1278 2820]

please, I am tired of using iron doors for security, let me use wooden ones without a gremlin gnawing on my mind that it is easy to break in

[Lomiei 1680]

Regarding the redstone doors, there is a capacity of creativity and ingenuity that is nothing but impressive, and if a player is able to bring those skills into the tangible world, they should be allowed to gain the benefits from it without being limited, or having its purpose undermined. It would also be less sensible from an rp perspecetive for people who have important valuables (and the technical skills), to only use storages/spaces that have a clear path to any passing bandit who shouldnt have the same knowledge access to certain spaces as a native would.

If it becomes such a problem that it affects the players, something like a guide on how to do/counter them, or a map of the known ones should be made available through individual/group effort. I think theres already too much restriction in general with these concepts by what I read in the document (not an oppressive amount though). 
I liked the build ones though, and that means a lot coming from me

[Zonty 505]

Iron doors are ugly, and the fact that you can get a flavorful build only at the expense of defense seems pretty ludicrous. I'd advocate for all doors being the same.

 

 

But with redstone doors.......

I don't think that they should be removed or mandated to have an obvious entry. There are plenty of people skulking about the map, city or literally any place, and if someone wanted to make the entrance noticeable so that people could easily interact with whatever is contained within, they could. But it doesn't mean they should have no other option. Even when it comes to storing something like a CA phylactery, why should it be easily accessible and interactable? People could have spent maybe months if not longer, step by step striving to the goal of acquiring that CA in character, and it should be possible to strip what the effort provided with just a flick of fingers? Gah.

 

I think that creativity that a person who is building the door exerts should be rewarded with the ability to build more convoluted doors that would require a great grain of wit to open, which is exactly what redstone provides.

 

On the contrary, though, I think that anything involving a specific key (even if just a mundane item) shouldn't exist at all. Whilst the logic behind such a possibility of course exists, there is neither any brain-power required to make it, nor any interesting way to figure out how the door functions. 

It's just trying every item until you either get lucky or there will be only one feasible option remaining. This is just dumb.

[DrakeHaze. 2494]

Just make it so the redstone door is kept open if someone is inside and can only be closed when the place it is locking down has nobody inside, this allows for places that want to be kept secret to remain secret so long as they are not visited often or caught visiting and allows for these places to be interacted with conflict when players are present inside.

[Traveller 2554]

i am glad the average joe doesnt balance this server lol

[Unwillingly 11859]

1 hour ago, Elennanore said:

One type of door shouldn't have a mechanical advantage over the other, purely for the sake of allowing folks to use whatever variety of door for the aesthetic they're choosing than what is 'ideal.'

I voted for the wrong option but this is exactly what I was thinking. making wood and iron doors have 0 mechanical difference doesn't affect anything other than visuals, and it'd be nice to be able to actually use wooden door varieties

as for redstone doors, I've always been of the opinion that they're extremely unbalanced and that they aren't even necessary for creating secret entrances. encouraging people to default to vanilla MC "secret doors" not only requires 0 tech work, it encourages creativity, and would be infinitely more balanced than what we have right now. and even people who have legitimately discovered hidden doors by right clicking until they find something have gotten in trouble in the past, meaning the only way to discover one is by being told of it in RP. which, good ******* luck lol. otherwise xarkly made a good post on this so I'd just be parroting everything he said

key and hopper locks 100% need to go though

alternatively why can't we just put a limit on how many redstone entrances regions can have?

[SlitheryC1 546]

Gigabrain redstone doors are fun, but I think they should be lockpickable during a heist if and only if you irply know where the door opens. Otherwise, it simply shouldn't be an option. To avoid the situation of having to be shown or told directly irp on where the door is without being called a metagamer, I think it'd be fair to let people emote knocking to test what blocks may be a door irp, then have the mod give an emote in return saying if it's solid wall or sounds 'hollow', similar to how mods may emote while lockpicking a chest. This might be a decent means of irply finding and searching for a door during a heist as this would take precious time away from it.

Side notes, I think item-specific keys are lame as hell. great idea, but in practice its abused a lot with absurd items acting as keys. Iron/wood doors i don't care that much about. If it looks ugly dress it in a way where it looks nice, but I can see how that can get annoying with some builds. If Iron doors and trapdoors were to be nerfed to the same level as it's wooden counterparts, however, I think they should be made cheaper or be /blockexchange-able as at that point it becomes a new decor block, but are still made with iron- a comparatively important material.

Edited Thursday at 07:41 PM by SlitheryC1

[tasty_cheesecake 952]

what would you do if i built a redstone door that required you to play the ruy lopez by the book until the end of theory

[teeylin 1161]

41 minutes ago, Unwillingly said:

alternatively why can't we just put a limit on how many redstone entrances regions can have?

this would be an incredible amount of work to moderate imo. keeping track of where every redstone door is and how many are in each region is not something i want to push for- i'd rather have a blanket statement like 'X mechanic specifically is banned' that can be applied to any door without creating a huge door tracker

 

7 minutes ago, tasty_cheesecake said:

what would you do if i built a redstone door that required you to play the ruy lopez by the book until the end of theory

cry

 

15 minutes ago, SlitheryC1 said:

Gigabrain redstone doors are fun, but I think they should be lockpickable during a heist if and only if you irply know where the door opens. Otherwise, it simply shouldn't be an option. To avoid the situation of having to be shown or told directly irp on where the door is without being called a metagamer, I think it'd be fair to let people emote knocking to test what blocks may be a door irp, then have the mod give an emote in return saying if it's solid wall or sounds 'hollow', similar to how mods may emote while lockpicking a chest. This might be a decent means of irply finding and searching for a door during a heist as this would take precious time away from it.

you and i are on the same page in this regard. it is my personal opinion that redstone doors should be lock-pickable during heists, and that is the current rule drafted on the proposal

 

16 minutes ago, SlitheryC1 said:

If Iron doors and trapdoors were to be nerfed to the same level as it's wooden counterparts, however, I think they should be made cheaper or be /blockexchange-able as at that point it becomes a new decor block,

if this goes through i will have a chat with the Block Exchange fellows and see what we can do

[satinkira 6626]

isolationism is the bane of roleplay; hopper doors and key locks (and having more than two iron doors, or two at all, really) causes isolationism. the once-great bandit squads known for pvping and /d20'ing unfortunate nations who got infiltrated by them are far lesser in quantity and power, and don't truly have the the influence they once did. nowdays most raids are conducted by spooks - what need, therefore, do nations truly have for more than two iron doors? perhaps I am disconnected from the true state of things, but it seems to me that placing barriers in the path of roleplay is, by principle, a bad thing. I do understand the need for them (I am not completely naive) but having any more than two seems an excess.

 

hopper doors and key-block doors are a pretty notion aesthetically speaking, but they often render a place near-impossible to break into. if one of the key (hah) roles of moderation is to encourage roleplay, then let us consider an example of the roleplay of hopper doors:

 

'I drop a feather into this stone here, and a secret door opens'.

 

it is obviously ridiculous, a mechanic borne of the foolish desire to hide from conflict, and the cowardly aim of creating a sphere 'untainted' by the influence of the rest of the server. let us also consider an example of key-block doors:

 

'I shove this carrot into this sand block, and the door opens'.

 

another ridiculous notion. I am somewhat more sympathetic to key locks than I am to hopper doors because of the hobbit - specifically, the passage from the mountain, where bilbo and his companions struggle for a time to open a door, only to find a minute keyhole within a slab of rock. it is a good excerpt from the story, and also aesthetically excellent; I would therefore advocate for key locks in their current form to be changed entirely, where a block may act as a key to the redstone door, but the block itself must have simple key perms as any other door does, and it must also be marked out clearly (with a sign, perhaps) as the door responsible for the opening of the redstone entrance. and I would advocate for the removal of hopper doors in their entirety, used as they are by individuals who simply have no interest in roleplaying with anyone beyond their clique (by definition!).